<p><strong>Rachel</strong>: Welcome to Bug Banter with the Xerces Society, where we explore the world of invertebrates and discover how to help these extraordinary animals. If you want to support our work, go to xerces.org/give.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Hi, I'm Matthew Shepherd in Portland, Oregon.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: And I'm Rachel Dunham in Missoula, Montana.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Illustration is a powerful and important tool for conservation, bringing science to life and presenting complex information in an engaging format. In a recent Bug Banter episode, we talked about the interface of art and science with Jane Kim and Thayer Walker of Ink Dwell. Today we are continuing our exploration of the role of art in science communication and research with two other talented artists, Maya Hutagalung and Dr. Madison Sankovitz. Rachel and I have had the good fortune to work with them both over the last few months because they have been Science Illustration Interns here at the Xerces Society.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Maya is a published illustrator whose work has appeared in a children’s book and been featured in gallery shows. She is pursuing a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Illustration, with a minor in Earth and Environmental Science, at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. She is most interested in how people intersect with their environment, and using art to communicate these connections.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Madison is an illustrator and scientist passionate about pollinator conservation and communicating ecological research through art. Madison received a PhD in entomology from University of California Riverside and is currently a postdoc at the Boulder Bee Lab at the University of Colorado Boulder.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Welcome to Bug Banter, Maya and Madison!</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Thank you so much for having us. It's wonderful to be here and to have worked with you for the past four months.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: It's been a great experience and I'm super excited to get into it.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: Yeah, thank you both. I can't believe it's been four months. The time has flown by. Haha.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: Definitely.</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah, definitely.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: To start, what have you been working on at Xerces?</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah, so this internship has given me the chance to work on a really exciting mix of projects across several Xerces programs. So, with the communications team—which is our team that we've been working on—I've expanded out our library of brand textures, which are icons related to invertebrates and their habitats, like butterfly scales or topographic lines. And these go in the background of different publications and social media posts just to kind of add some visual consistency and interest there. And then Maya and I have developed a refreshed visual identity for the Bring Back the Pollinators campaign. And I've also illustrated a gardening calendar for the campaign, which both of you have been working on these projects alongside us. And this has been a really fun blend of practical guidance and also creating a vibrant composition using vector illustration.</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: And then I have also been working with the endangered species team. And I've been working on several figures that communicate some big picture conservation issues, like an infographic about global threats to invertebrates, a general figure illustrating species declines, and a figure showing what fireflies need to thrive. And then on the Western Monarch Count front, I've been making a naturalist illustration showing the range of tree species used for overwintering, as well as a graph that puts Western Monarch Count data into context with historical numbers. So it's been a really rewarding mix of science communication, and design strategy, and conservation messaging.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: Hopping off of that, I will start with my work on to Bring Back the Pollinators campaign with Madison. We came up with a great plan at the beginning of that project to split up the work in sort of sections so that we had a pipeline going on. So for that project, I began by sketching out all the species that you'll be seeing when that campaign is finally released and using the assets that Madison created, I have been animating this reel that you will be able to watch on our social media platforms.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: I have also been working alongside the pesticides and pollinator teams for their illustrations. With the pesticides team we have been focusing on their research paper on how pesticides get into agricultural habitats. We've been combining around seven processes into one image, including spray drift and chemigation. This figure will appear in their research paper and other materials teaching people just how pesticides get into these environments in ways that you might not be able to see yourself. For the pollinators team, I have been working on their grasslands brochure project, creating this large-scale illustration that shows the many benefits of a healthy grassland habitat, and what the invertebrates in them do for the environment. As well as a very cute brochure cover of a dung beetle.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: It has been great working alongside these scientists—they are so passionate about their work and have been very happy teaching me about new subjects I didn't know before because we're all so invested in getting this illustration as accurate and impactful as we can.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: That's awesome. So what has been your favorite part of being an intern at Xerces, and these projects?</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: This is just jumping off of my last note. It's definitely been the collaboration part of all the projects. Like for example, getting to work with you, Madison, and using your assets, has been a very great experience. And it made animating the reel a much more easy process than if I had just done it myself, right? I needed other people's insights, including your insights, to make this project really shine. And that goes for all the other illustrations that I've been working on with these other projects. For example, I've been working with Emily May and Mia Park for their pesticides agricultural project, and they've been sending me many references and articles that I can look at, study in between our meetings. And the many conversations we have about just tiny little details, making sure it's as accurate as possible, has been such a blast. Because these are research-based illustrations, and we want to get this information across as effectively and accurately as possible.</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah, I definitely second that. Working with all the wonderful Xerces staff has been really wonderful, and also having Maya in this internship with me. Maya has taught me a lot of different things about illustration, and even some of the software that we use, like Adobe Illustrator, there were like effects and things in Illustrator that I did not know about before this internship. So that's been incredibly helpful. And I've been blown away by the warmth and generosity of all the staff here. So that's been my favorite part. In addition to getting to translate complex ecological issues into something clear, and inviting, and memorable. Every project has its own puzzle—figuring out the most effective way for people to see a pattern, a decline, a behavior, a habitat need. And when the visual suddenly clicks, and reveals something that's otherwise abstract or overwhelming, that's incredibly rewarding. So I just feel like a kid in a candy shop with all these different projects. So it's been just a wonderful experience.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: And what has illustration brought to these projects that we couldn't communicate another way?</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: I would say illustration lets us make the invisible visible in a way that moves people. So a single visual can unify data, and ecology, and behavior, and narrative in ways that text alone just can't. For example, showing Monarch overwintering tree diversity, or depicting layered threats facing invertebrates, it requires clarity and emphasis. And using art to depict these things can resonate with people in ways that photos or charts just can't always do. And illustration really lets us highlight what's essential—simplifying what's confusing, removing the noise, and telling a visual story that people can grasp and relate to instantly.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: Definitely, yeah. You have so much versatility when it comes to creating scientific illustrations that you don't have with other mediums, as you were saying. With text, it's different. It's also different from photography because you are able to combine these different spheres on temporal or spatial scales in ways that you can't do with a still image. For example, the illustrations that I have been working on have been combining different times, different locations that you wouldn't actually be able to go out and see for yourself, but it could theoretically exist. It's very specifically made for that project, and exactly what messages that the scientists need to convey. So that flexibility to just include all of that information without having to go out and look for it is a very useful tool.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Yeah, that's great. I've just been listening in—. Obviously, you know, over the last few months we've been meeting almost weekly to look at illustrations and talk to you, but I had no idea about the breadth of the work that you were working on here with the other teams. Some of it I knew about, but a lot of it I didn't, so—. I was like, I've always been so impressed. Like we have some suggestions, and then it happens, and gets changed really quickly. And I'm like, “Wow, how'd you do that so quickly?” And now I'm even more impressed knowing that you did that and like six other things at the same time, so.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Maya, you're currently studying both illustration and Earth sciences. What are some projects that you've worked on that have combined these two topics, or science and illustration in general?</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: Yes. Thank you for asking. I was very intentional when I chose to study both of these topics. And, you know, sometimes I would get people asking me like, “What do you intend to do with both of those?” And in my head, it's very clear. Art is the method that I use to create these projects, or to learn something for myself, or teach something to someone else. And Earth science just happens to be what I want to study. So I'm studying these topics, and I'm using art to communicate them.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: One project that I have worked on is in a class that I had last semester: The Art and Science of Earth Mapping. It was an Earth science topics course that was specifically made for students in both our university's Earth science department and art department to participate in, and I'm happy to say they're doing it again next semester. But as kind of the first cohort and the first artist to join that class, it was very experimental. So I had a lot of freedom in how I decided to interpret the goal of that class in combining these two studies. I ended up doing a research project that I presented at my university called A Multifaceted Nature: An Art Science Exploration of Identities in North Carolina Geology. So it was a piece of fine arts work that was very research-based, and specific to the state that I am in and my school's in, which is North Carolina, known for our four geographical provinces from the mountains to the sea. That's something everyone here really loves.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: I've also been doing an independent study with a geology professor at my university. And this is something that I'd planned even before joining Xerces because I wanted to create these educational materials for the geological department at my university to use [for] these students. We've been looking at subjects including igneous petrology, optical mineralogy, environmental geology, and geomorphology to create these diagrams or illustrations, whether it be for professors in their classes, research papers, or even potentially a textbook. And it's been definitely a great experience that mirrors a lot of the experience that I had at Xerces, which is beginning with your project, beginning with the research, and then using art to interpret that research.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Sounds great. And with subjects, as with names as complicated as those—geomorphology I understand because I studied that, but some of the other ones I'm like, “Ahh,” I'm trying to—so that's where visual and illustration really becomes most powerful. With all of this, what have been, you know, a challenging concept to illustrate?</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: The most challenging ones have been any topic that spans across a temporal space or a spatial space. Because these illustrations that I created are for Intro to Geology students. I remember taking Intro to Geology back in freshman year. And seeing these visuals really helps because it's nothing that you can actually go outside and see for yourself because these geological processes take millions of years. We will not see it in our lifetimes. Or perhaps, maybe there's a relationship between something that's microscopic with something that's just so large and you have to combine both of them. And that's where that optical mineralogy project came into play, and having to use call outs to show, “Oh, this is what it looks like under a microscope,” versus, “This is what it looks like when you're holding it in your hand.”</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: We are doing a project right now on volcanoes, and that has been a similar issue because I had to ask a geology professor: what is something that they do not see in any pre-existing science visualizations? That's the whole point is we want to create something new and something useful for these students. And he was saying that there's an issue understanding these large processes connecting to these smaller processes. So then it becomes a question of how do I illustrate these small monitoring tools that measure these small earthquakes as related to a super volcano that erupted maybe 600,000 years ago?</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Just listening in I can see how complicated—. And that would be a challenge to show all of that. The converse of that is what has been a simple concept to illustrate, or is there no such thing as an easy one?</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: That's a good question. I really wanna hear Madison's answer to this question, as well. I hesitate to say “easy,” but there's definitely things that come easier, if that makes sense. For me it would be one-on-one depictions of life. You know, if you're illustrating, let's say—. For the Bring Back the Pollinators campaign I was very literal with my depictions of species when I was creating the layout sketches. It was still an imagined space because it was designed to look like an aesthetic piece rather than an actual landscape, but those are quite one-on-one depictions of the invertebrates and their host plants. So it was a little less juggling than having to illustrate something that's invisible, or illustrate something that's so different on a time or space scale.</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah, I completely agree with you, Maya. I'm so jealous of this—these Earth science illustrations that you're doing and this curriculum. That sounds so cool. And like so many interesting projects. Also because it does bring in a lot of like imagination and science, you know, about like a super volcano that erupted so long ago. That's really fun to bring into illustrations. It's also really fun to depict something that you're trying to get as scientifically accurate as possible. The nice thing about insects is that they're symmetrical. And so—. And they're very kind of—the morphology is somewhat consistent across even different body plans, even different orders. There are certain things about it that you can break it down into the head, and thorax, and abdomen. And after illustrating them for a while, you begin to notice patterns. And so that has been really wonderful for me in this internship, and also something that I appreciate about insects, yeah. But, there's also so many different types, and shapes, and colors, so it also brings huge variety, too.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: Thank you for sharing all of that. It took me back to my undergrad days of taking geology. Geology's so interesting, so it's nice to sort of divulge into this other world of science. Thank you for sharing all that.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: Madison, as an illustrator and an entomologist, what are some examples of ways illustration can be used in science communication?</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah, so I think Maya's already honestly touched on a lot of these really important points. Some examples of how illustration can be particularly helpful in science communication, aside from simply photography, or writing—it can clarify species ID and morphology in ways that can be hard to capture in photos, especially for insects or other species that are maybe fleeting, or fly really fast, or something like that. You can visualize behaviors or life stages that are rarely photographed for the same reasons. You can convey ecological interactions that occur underground, or at night, or at microscopic scales. Making data sets like the long-term monarch counts that I've been working on, you can make these data sets more intuitive and emotionally resonant by working with scale, and color, and call outs, and things like that. And also just creating outreach materials that feel welcoming and not intimidating—I think that is everything at the end of the day. Really creating—making science for the people, and for everyone. So I think at its core illustration makes complexity feel navigable and it invites people in.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: I love that. and I just appreciate the talent that you both have, and other illustrators, because it really opens up our world to see something, like you said, that we wouldn't naturally see. You know, we might be able to dig up like a bumble bee nest, but we're not gonna be able to like go underground and see it in the works, and you kind of expand our world. And I just appreciate that so much because I have absolutely no talent when it comes to illustration. No ability in that art department. Piggybacking off of what you previously said, do you think there are ways that we can expand art in science communication?</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's so much room to integrate illustration in policy communication, environmental signage—which I know Xerces definitely takes part in—and community science guides. So all these are things that are beyond simply a scientific paper or a fact sheet. But visual storytelling can make conservation more inclusive, as well, by including images of different types of people from different backgrounds engaging in science. And it can also make it more emotionally compelling. And so I think we're only beginning to explore this full potential.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: Yeah, definitely. I think what's great about your experience is you're kind of—you have a foot in these two sort of different worlds. And so especially for like the science world, what do you want scientists to know about the artistic process?</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah. I would want scientists to know that good illustration is collaborative and iterative. Artists rely on scientists for context, accuracy, and nuance, and scientists can rely on artists to shape how those details become understandable. Strong visuals come from open dialogue, shared reference materials, and enough time to refine the concept. So when we work together early and throughout the process, the final result is always stronger.</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: And I think that all scientists should be writing artists into their grants, as well, to help communicate the results of every single study. Honestly, like in federal grants, and I think basically any scientific grant that I can think of, there is a space in there where scientists need to talk about how they're going to disseminate results and make the science communicated to people. And I think there's so much untapped potential there. Especially if it's a larger grant, federal grant with lots of money, there's so much room in the budget where artists could be brought into this process. And I just think that—. I'm really starting to see much more interdisciplinary collaboration in this way, but I don't know, I think that there's just a ton of potential there for more interdisciplinary collaboration.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: That's a great insight. And I appreciate you putting a plug in there for people to write into grants for having illustrations, and that's great. I'm gonna throw my next question towards Maya initially, but it'd be great to have your input, as well, on this one, Madison. I know that you both illustrate in a variety of styles. I mean, how do you choose the right style for a project? And then kind of as a follow on to that, knowing that over the last few months you've been working together jointly on projects, how do you blend your styles to create the asset at the end?</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: Yes, thank you. That's a really great question. To give insight into the illustration project as—the illustration process as a whole, I always begin every single process with asking who the audience is, and what the purpose of this illustration is. That always comes first—the goals, and who we are getting the product to—before I even go into what styles do I want to use. You're correct, I did include a variety of styles in my application portfolio for this role. So I knew that I could do illustrations that range from simple, to perhaps more rendered and realistic. And trying to find where in that range we need every single project to go has been a crucial part of the beginning part of that process.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: So to start off with the Bring Back the Pollinators revitalization that Madison and I have been working on. We were given, at first, a collection of works from previous Xerces partnerships. So we were looking at previous Xerces signage, or other campaigns just to see what kind of visual identity already exists. As well as looking at the brand identity of Xerces as a company. That's where we were able to get a jumping board for looking at our own styles and saying, “Okay, where's the middle ground between my style, your style, and all of Xerces’ previous works?” For the Bring Back the pollinators campaign, that audience was for all of Xerces’ members. It was a more general audience rather than, let's say, another illustration that's focused on readers of a specific journal, for example. And so we wanted to have that style be a lot more open, accessible. So we were making notes like, “We're going to emphasize the aesthetics in this project.” I was redoing all these layouts to make it less diagram-like and more, “this is a poster that you can hang on your wall,” if that makes sense. Haha.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: It's the same process I use for my other projects. So for the research paper agricultural visual, I was looking at other graphics that have been published in research papers, and others Xerces materials that were all-inclusive, showing these landscapes. And then finding my style fitting within that. And for the brochure, I knew that we had larger specs to work with, and previous brochure illustrations had been a lot more detailed and rendered, so that was something that I knew I was going to use.</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah, absolutely. In this project, basically we found that the best way to split up the work in a way that would make both of our styles coherent in the end. So for this campaign, we had four different kind of assets and images that we were trying to create, showing the different steps of what actions people should take for the campaign. And rather than splitting them up two and two and coming out with two very different stylized sets of assets, Maya did, as she mentioned, the initial sketching, and then I did all the rendering, which is really taking Maya’s sketches and refining the lines, and adding the final color to everything. And we decided to do this in vector art as opposed to raster art. So this is really like blocks of color that can be manipulated in Adobe Illustrator, and they can be resized and scaled and still maintain the same amount of detail.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: You used the terms vector art and raster art. What's the difference?</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: Right, right. So raster images take pixels as data, rather than vector images that actually create equations for the paths that you are creating. So when you are upscaling a raster image you can lose some of that detail, but when you're upscaling a vector image you do not, because the equations between each path are the same. And Madison's very strong with vector art—I'm more specialized in raster art—so it was great getting to use your assets to animate, because, as you were saying, the vector files made animating way more easy.</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah, there's pros and cons to both. With raster art you can more accurately capture texture, and sometimes detail, too. And with vector art, it's great for things like these visual assets that we wanna use in many different contexts. Raster art—people might be familiar with some applications that use different kinds of brushes. Like on iPad there’s a popular application called Procreate that creates raster art, where you can use brushes with your apple pencil that look like pencils, or paint brushes, or things like that. Very realistic depictions of real-life media that you might use to create a drawing. Whereas vector art, it's much more made with lines, and color blocks, and things like that. Although Adobe Illustrator has become much better at showing texture, replicating texture in certain like real life situations like that.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: It was a really good point that Madison brought up with the raster imagery being able to mimic these traditional mediums. Because I know for some of my projects, I was looking at pen and ink drawings, or watercolor drawings, and knowing that I was going to imitate that in my style definitely led me to choosing raster imagery.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: With all of that, do you have a preferred style or type of project?</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: Good question. For me, it's definitely raster. Painterly with line art.</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: I think I also second that painterly aesthetic. I think it's really helpful in terms of science illustration in particular, too, to really accurately capture what a species looks like. Although, as Maya said, I think I do a lot of vector art, and so honestly, I think most of the projects that I've done for this internship have ended up being vector art. So it's really helped me kind of expand my repertoire in that area, too.</p><p><strong>Matthew: Right. Thank you.</strong></p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: So we live in an era of rapidly advancing AI. Are there any concerns regarding the use of AI, particularly in science illustration?</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah. So AI—. I think the biggest issue with AI is that it often gets things wrong or inaccurate. So it's my understanding that the models are getting better, but if someone simply creates an AI image and says, “Create an image of this butterfly doing a specific feeding behavior,” you can't just have AI create that, and then trust that it's going to be accurate—both in terms of what the species looks like, and in terms of the behavior that it's doing. So, you know, I think there's definitely a place where that can be useful in very like casual communications, or something like that. But in terms of anything that's gonna be published, AI—it—. Yeah, it's just really a matter of people not checking the work, and not understanding what is accurate in the first place. And so it can create this spiral of misinformation, especially if AI images are published online. And then people look at that and then think it's correct, and then also AI uses that to create more images. So I think it's the spiral of misinformation that is really the danger here.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: Jumping off of that—that's a really good point. There's a sort of agreement between a communicator and the audience they're communicating with on—especially for scientific topics—the expectation that this information has been checked, and peer-reviewed, and is correct, and accurate. And I've seen AI generative imagery incorporated into some of other projects not for Xerces. And seeing that when you're trying to generate a scientific illustration using one of these AI models, it is not able, currently, to get the information correct. And it will look visually “accurate,” quote, unquote, at a glance, but when you're looking at it closer, and if you know what topic it is trying to communicate, you know that it's actually not doing it correctly. So it becomes an issue between the audience of who you're communicating to believing that, “Hey, your job is to give me this information, and I'm going to trust that you are a reputable source, and it looks reputable, so I'm going to believe it to a certain degree.” And knowing that that trust can be broken if you are giving them imagery that has inaccuracies.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: Thank you for answering that. I've definitely seen some videos on social media that I know are fake because I know animal behavior, and I know that that would never happen. But for people who don't know that, they take it as a real video. And it's pretty upsetting to me, to be honest. I'm like, “Why are we creating these fake videos of animals and miscommunicating?” Because it can be so dangerous. And while there are benefits to AI, I think that's definitely one that we have to be wary of. So thank you both for your insight and your expert lens on that topic.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Just the other day I was reading an article about what they predict social media trends, and so on will be, and one of them was increased reliance upon AI for campaign visuals and writing your campaigns. But that was for—not for science. This is for the general kind of social media. But increasingly, there are these images out there. And I know we played with AI one time to see if it could make a bee. And it was alarming—and amusing—the outcome. It's like bees would [have] eight legs, and limbs in all the wrong places. And, you know, it was just like, “Whoa.”</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: One thing I wanna mention in this part of the conversation is that you'll be losing a lot of the collaborative processes that Madison and I had actually mentioned earlier. That's one of my favorite parts about working with Xerces is the collaboration between scientists and artists. And people who do both like Madison, for example, is very important because you can generate new ideas from that collaboration alone—getting people from different backgrounds to talk about a same idea, and how they want to communicate it. Because I know, for example, our Bring Back the Pollinators campaign—the initial idea is completely different to what it looks like right now. And that was all because of the collaboration process. And you wouldn't be able to have that one-on-one with people, and get them to create these very specific project changes, these very specific details in their illustrations. Like, for example, my brochure illustration—every single species of grass in that landscape I drew came from a list of preapproved grass species from these scientists. So I was quite literally drawing every single individual grand of strass—strand of grass, but it was for that same reason of collaboration, specificity, and accuracy.</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah, I agree. I think collaboration is one of the best parts of both being an artist and being a scientist. And so who wants to take that away? I don't know. It's no fun, people. No one wants to sit in a lab by themself. No one wants to just draw by themselves in a vacuum, if you're a science illustrator. So, yeah.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: Definitely. It's like we're already proving, all of us sitting here talking, that they are connected fields.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Yeah. Maybe collaboration is one of the answers to my next question, but what advice would you give to folks who are interested in using their artistic skills to further conservation?</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: Yeah, collaboration would be a great answer for this, as well. And going off of that, your willingness to learn from other people, and your willingness to teach. Creating projects for Xerces and creating projects for my school independent studies has been a very big learning process, because I will be learning about these topics that I never knew about before. So I don't have an entomology background, and I am not a geology major, so there was a lot to learn. But thankfully, when you're learning from other scientists, you have somebody there to kind of help you along the way. But you, of course, yourself have to be willing to go that extra mile if you want to use your artistic skills to help conservation.</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah, I completely agree. And I would say just jump in and start illustrating what you love. I think for many people there's a barrier to entry because they don't necessarily have a specific project, or a specific collaboration, or job, and I think there is huge power in personal projects. So if you're passionate about it, that passion's gonna come across in the final image. And there's just so much room to share your work with local conservation groups, educators, or community science programs. There's always need for clear visuals in science and in conservation. So you don't need permission to begin contributing, just make art that sparks curiosity, or empathy, and that's already doing conservation work.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: Well, thank you both so much for just sharing your expertise, and the process. I feel like, despite working with you for the past few months, I've learned so much in this, you know, past 45 minutes or so. So we always end with two questions, and I'm excited to ask you both this first one. What inspired you to study science and illustration?</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah, I have always been someone who is drawn to small details. And so as a young person, I was really drawn to insects for that reason, and also to art. So growing up I spent a lot of time outside observing, and collecting, and drawing what I found. And science and art always felt like they could easily go hand in hand, because they're two complimentary ways of understanding the world. I feel like studying entomology gave me language for what I was seeing in the natural world, and then illustration has given me a way to share that work with others. That said, I did mostly go to school for science, and I thought that I had to choose one or the other. So I really focused on science and entomology—I got a PhD in it. But art has always been a huge part of my life. And it's been more in my adult life that I've realized that, “Oh, these two actually go really hand in hand, and one of them strengthens the other—always.” Now I feel like I have my dream career, and this has been a dream internship, because it's really marrying these two passions of my life.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: That was fantastic, Madison. I was listening to your answer and I was like, “Oh my gosh, you and I have a lot of these same thoughts.” Because my answer is gonna be very similar. It was the outdoors for me. I've always been outdoors since I was a kid, and was lucky enough to attend these summer, outdoorsy classes when I was very young. And you’re right that science and art are just two ways of understanding the world around us. So you're born with this innate curiosity and you want to understand the world around you. So how are you going to do that? You're going to do that by noticing the little details, learning about them, and creating from them.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: I would agree that working with Xerces has been a dream internship. Going into my undergrad, I was always told that I had to choose one or the other, and that's why I was very hardheaded about, “Oh, I really want to mix these two topics into my degree. How am I going to do that?” I'm still doing that. There's still more for me to learn—way more—in both fields that I do want to learn, but this experience at Xerces has definitely taught me a lot more about both the art and the science fields, and how they connect. Because, as Madison and I agree, they really do connect. We're understanding the world around us, and we're using art both to understand and communicate it. And I've seen just how much is connected with the scientists at Xerces, with the community around us. And I'm so excited to see how more people will respond to these illustrations once they're published.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: I'm very pleased to hear, Maya, you mention that you kept being advised that you have to specialize and choose. Because as I was listening to Madison, and I was thinking, “Oh yeah. All those high school career guidance—” And even at high school, you get specialized, you get put in a little track. “Ooh, you’re on the med track,” and, “You’re on the whatever track.” And so there's—even from a young age, people are kind of split and pushed towards one way or another. So it takes a lot courage in a way to say, “Nope. I'm going both ways.”</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: My high school art teacher was the first who really suggested that you could study both.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Yeah. Good for that teacher. Excellent. So our very last question for both of you—maybe Madison, you might answer it first—but if you could see any bug in the wild, what would it be and why?</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: I love this question. I would love to see a Wallace's giant bee. It's this incredible, almost mythical species. It's the largest bee in the world, and it lives in Indonesia in the forest there, I believe. And it was thought to be extinct for decades. And so seeing one would feel like encountering a piece of natural history that almost slipped away. And people have seen them in more recent times, but it's still been pretty rare. So for someone who studies bees, as I do, it would be absolutely unforgettable.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: I wish I had an Indonesian bug, too, but I don't. And that's where my parents are from. So my answer is the Melissa blue, just because she is the main character of one of my illustrations and I've never gotten a chance to see her. She does not live in the eastern coast of North America. The Melissa blue is on the western coast. So hopefully, if I go over there for vacation, or a visit, or something, I can go out on a little hunting spree and observe from a safe distance.</p><p><strong>Rachel</strong>: Well, thank you both so much. I love these answers. My cheeks hurt from smiling so much. It really has been a pleasure to have you here on the podcast and just to get to know you, and work with you the past couple of months. So just thank you for sharing your art with us, and your incredible talent. And I do hope that we get to work together again in the future. And thank you for sharing all this great information with our listeners.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Yeah, I'll echo that thanks. It really has been a pleasure to collaborate with you. And I know that the illustrations you've created will last for years and have an impact in many, many different places. So thank you for that.</p><p><strong>Madison</strong>: Yeah. Thank you both so much. It really has been a pleasure to work with both of you. And it's also been such fun talking on this podcast today.</p><p><strong>Maya</strong>: And Xerces has a great community. You are all a great community to work with. It's been, like we said earlier, a dream come true.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: Bug Banter is brought to you by the Xerces Society, a donor-supported nonprofit that is working to protect insects and other invertebrates—the life that sustains us.</p><p><strong>Matthew</strong>: If you are already a donor, thank you so much. If you want to support our work, go to xerces.org/donate. For information about this podcast or for show notes, go to xerces.org/bugbanter.</p>
